Lockpicking reform

Because there are too many crafting/profession skills for each to have its own forum.
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Lockpicking reform

Post by Acarin »

I had brought this up a while ago on a call but just wanted to post on it to document and get thoughts. Picking a lockbox currently seems to roll against a static value, meaning that if the lockbox has a true difficulty of 400 and you have 280 skill (a max roll of 380), you can never open it. This seems a bit odd to me as if I spend long enough on a lock, I should be able to open it... if it's really hard, it may just take me way way longer.

So what I propose is moving locksmithing over to a system more similar combat. Basically, when picking a lock, player gets a randomized roll up to max skill value and is rolling against lock value (randomized roll up to max value). Lockboxes above your skill level get a couple rerolls to make it even harder. No rerolls for lockboxes at or around your skill... and maybe player gets rerolls from boxes way below their skill.. This means that someone with 100 skill could open a tough box (400) but they would spend a half hour+ doing it... so there would still be motivation to train skill but the moving targets would allow a little more flexibility rather than a hard "you can/you can't." You could add a message for difficult chests (versus skill) that says "This one looks like it may take a while." when assessing.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Navi
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 am

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Navi »

I don't really like the dynamic challenge locks. I think it'd be better if it used an exploding dice system.
For example, The lock challenge is 400, and you have 200 skill. This means you can only really pick boxes up to skill of 300. In this instance, if you land a roll of 250 to 300, then you can roll as if you had 100 skill more, so 400, If then you rolled above 350, you'd get to roll another 100, and so on so forth until you rolled below the threshold for the exploding dice, or until the lock was unlocked. 50 is just a stand in number. I'd do totalskill-(total skill/6) to come up with the threshold personally. It seems to work well for Shadowrun.
wander without wanting, thrust into lands unknown. the shadows shift and change, and the worlds with them.
I'm not a soldier but I'm fighting
Can you hear me through the silence?
I won't give up 'cause there will be a day
We'll meet again
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Acarin »

The reason I suggested the system I did is that it is easy for Rias to repurpose from combat and other systems. I am not sure that coding a shadowrun system in would be worth it for time investment, especially since we don't actually see the rolls. What matters is the end result... meaning how long it actually takes someone of X skill on average to open a box of Y skill. This can easily be controlled with small modifications to rerolls using an existing system rather than remaking a system from a game that is not relevant to systems in cogg and I'm guessing would require more effort.
Last edited by Acarin on Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Navi
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 am

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Navi »

I don't see it being a hard system to code. It's pretty straight forward. You roll your skill, if it achieves a value greater than X, then reroll with a 100 point bonus. If that roll is more than the required success number, then you beat the lock. It wouldn't be any more difficult of a change than asking to have it changed in the first place, which isn't something I'm really agreeing with to begin with. I'm only suggesting that if it is to be changed to be able to unlock a box or door or whatever with a skill less than the challenge rating, then I would use exploding rolls to do it. The probability sits better with such a system anyway.
wander without wanting, thrust into lands unknown. the shadows shift and change, and the worlds with them.
I'm not a soldier but I'm fighting
Can you hear me through the silence?
I won't give up 'cause there will be a day
We'll meet again
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Acarin »

That also results in a very linear progression of rolls and unlock times will be a lot faster. So for someone to unlock a box with a difficulty of 800 at 100 skill, it would be very likely after about 36 checks. That's probably way too generous given the gap. It's the +100 skill every high roll that seems unreasonable here. That's exceedingly generous and guarantees success within a relatively short window. Picking an 800 skill lockbox with 100 skill should be more difficult than that.

A "dynamic" system, as you call it, would create a way wider spread of results but take more time on average (depending in the rerolls). Getting it quickly could happen but would be very improbable. The exact success rate and margin could be determined from Nobody's existing tables. In addition, it would give an independent chance with each check in case picking is interrupted. Your exploding system would require that someone keep working at it for a while without interruption rather than just give a very small chance on each check.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Navi
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 am

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Navi »

Actually, the chances of someone with 100 skill cracking a skill 800 box would be 1 in 216 (18 minutes minimum), I think, but that's pretty generous.
wander without wanting, thrust into lands unknown. the shadows shift and change, and the worlds with them.
I'm not a soldier but I'm fighting
Can you hear me through the silence?
I won't give up 'cause there will be a day
We'll meet again
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Acarin »

Maybe I'm not clear on this. Do you keep the +100 skill until you get the next +100 skill? Or does it drop after 1 attempt? You're saying that you would have to roll over 5/6 6 times in a row to be able to open?

I've been interpreting this as rolling 5/6*your skill a total of 6 times to open.

Either way, this does not allow an independent chance of opening a box on each roll which seems somewhat counter to what one would expect and to other systems so think this type of thing would not work well here.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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nobody
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Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by nobody »

I like this idea, I also don't like this idea. The opposed roll system works very well for combat because if your rolls are too low in combat you get too grievously injured and have to pay excessive physicker costs to get patched up or you just die. With lockpicking, having too low skill means either it takes longer (but maybe not a lot longer) or you can't do it at all. With the new system it would mean it just takes longer. Sometimes a lot longer, but in general, just longer.

Some things to keep in mind:
- If any lockpicker with 100 skill could pick any lockbox, that would devalue treasure hunters and rogues who specialize in locksmithing.
- Small deficiencies (10-20 points) might be able to be made up with affinities when those are released.
- The number of boxes out of range for non-specialized lockpickers will only increase as higher skill combat areas are released.

I still like this idea though, because there's definitely room for lockbox traps to get nastier (even without getting deadlier). Some thoughts there:
- Have the lethergy effect of poison needles last for bells, not minutes.
- Add other poison varieties for strength or constitution penalties (I assume the lethergy effect works like an agility penalty).
- Add other occult traps that drop long-term hexes on people (intuition/willpower/awareness penalties are what initially came to mind, but occult curses can be many and varied and awareness penalties could also definitely come from poisons).
- Add appropriate healing/restorative abilities to physickers and warlocks or arcanists. If these are added, the penalty durations could be extended to days or even indefinitely until treated. I really love the idea of someone having to have a long hard think before they let a warlock have a vial of blood to cure their curse.
- People who don't pick locks would still have to rely on others, as they do now (neither more nor fewer interactions), people who pick locks well still do their own work (marginally more interactions based on bad things happening), and people who pick locks less well now get to decide if they'd rather interact with a more skilled picker (as they must now) or risk interacting with a physicker or occult practitioner if the don't (probably marginally fewer interactions, maybe).

Once lockpicking gets more dangerous, I'd say it's fair game to open up the roll mechanics to opposed rolls because there will be heavier consequences for trying with low skill. The reason I like the idea of opposed rolls is because giving lockboxes rerolls opens up the possibility of giving lockboxes more rerolls. I don't care for rerolls based on skill gap though, I'd rather see those rerolls used in other ways. For example, consider having 2-4 tiers of lockboxes that start with 2 rerolls and add one base reroll for each additional tier depending on the difficulty of the mob/area where it's found. Then, have rare boxes that have an additional reroll on difficulty and a reroll on the treasure table, and exceptionally rare boxes with two additional rerolls of difficulty and two rerolls on the treasure table. Treasure table rerolls will allow for those "higher luck" boxes to really pay off. Yay rerolls.
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Acarin »

I think the idea is that it would take closer to an hour to for someone with low skill to pick a top tier chest which people wouldn't routinely wait for. For fixed chests in combat areas, this is a lot of risk. If you're picking for someone else, they're not going to wait that long. If you're picking for yourself as you absorb, you may get one box open before your head clears if you're lucky... so there's still a strong motivation to train. If you want to be quick and efficient with your boxes, you're still going to train it up. This goes back to time requirements and that many activities do not require risk. If I could go out and get 10 lockboxes at my skill level in the time that it takes me to open a single higher level chest, I am probably going to make more off of opening more chests than the single chest that I work at for a long period. It is demotivating for someone who trains to 400, 500, or 600 to know that they will have to toss some chests as well...

I agree that the trap types should be expanded and potentially a bit worse... but needle traps are already rough (especially for fixed chests in combat areas) and I'm very much against long lasting penalties that are as annoying as or worse than a straight death. I could see disease traps and a few of the others... but the disarm mechanic does not seem to be that heavily influenced by skill. Most locksmiths can easily disarm a trap that they have no chance of picking. Maybe this should be revisited as well (although I do like the current system... it seems reasonable so far. Occasionally, they're set off if we're checking once or while disarming but it's not super common).

Some good ideas with rerolls there.

Edit: Just to add... long term consequences or expensive/dangerous remedies reduce the probability that locksmiths will help others and also should increase the fee for opening boxes. This seems like a tough situation when some boxes only contain 51 riln... even with harder boxes.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Navi
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 am

Re: Lockpicking reform

Post by Navi »

That's the general idea of it. You would roll once, then if you exceeded the threshold, you'd get a bonus 100 di, and if you exceed the threshold on that roll, then you'd roll another 100, otherwise you'd take the result compare it to the lock challenge and if it succeeds then you bypass the lock. Otherwise your next roll is just a normal roll unless you get another exploding di. For example:
Lock challenge 500
Current skill 200
For this example, the threshold is between 250 and 300, giving me a one in six chance of obtaining an exploding di.
Eventually I'll land at 270, in which case I'll roll an additional di of 100. For this di I need to land between 84 and 100 to achieve a second exploding di. Let's say I roll a 90, so then I combine 270 plus 90, which gives me 360. However, I got another exploding di, so now I roll an additional 100 di. Let's say my luck doesn't hold and I roll a 40, so now my result is 400. 400 does not bypass 500, so the lock stays locked. This was all just one complete check though, and so the next roll would be a normal 0 and 300 roll based on my current skill, lacking any of the exploding dice from before.
This means it's possible for someone to open a box beyond their skill, but with each successive level it becomes more and more unlikely. If you're at skill 400, and the lock challenge is 800, you'd have a 1 in 1296 chance of opening it, that's assuming that you don't have any rerolls for various stats or from morale or something, which we don't know if it impacts it or not, or at least I don't.
wander without wanting, thrust into lands unknown. the shadows shift and change, and the worlds with them.
I'm not a soldier but I'm fighting
Can you hear me through the silence?
I won't give up 'cause there will be a day
We'll meet again
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