Dying Bundled Items

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Frisbee
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Dying Bundled Items

Post by Frisbee »

Potentially semi-grumpy post ahead. Sorry in advance.

Per a fairly recent changelog entry, it is no longer possible to dye bundled items. I hadn't seen this one coming nor participated in discussions regarding it, so it caught me a bit by surprise. I think I can understand why this change occured. Say you had a really rare dye and about a trillion skeins of thread. You only had to use said dye on the thread and you'd have a huge supply of this super rare-coloured thread. This isn't really realistic, so I figure it's fair enough that it happened. However, the way dyes work post-change is incredibly inefficient, in my personal opinion, at least. Say you're someone who prefers giving the market a bit of variety and not the same boring grey or white every time. Considering dyes are basically there purely for aesthetic reasons, I think that it can get ridiculously expensive trying to buy all the right dyes and colour the right items, especially if you're not the adventuring-type, which not everyone is.

I think there's a compromise that can be achieved, so folks don't abuse rare dyes but also have enough of them to make enough pretty things without going bankrupt. We've got an entire dyer's cottage in Shadgard! With vats, and everything! Why not use it? How about...
Put dye in vat
You put a vial of swampgrass-green dye in a boubling vat of dye.
The dye slowly spreads in the vat.
Put thread in vat
Warning: there is only enough dye in the vat to change the colour of 350 items in this bundle. You will be left with two differently-coloured bundles, after the dying process is complete.
If you're sure, repeat this command within the next 10 seconds.
Put thread in vat
You put a skein of white rimeveil thread (bundled 222222) in a boubling dye vat.
*After some time has ellapsed*
Look in vat
In the boubling vat of dye (instance container) you see a skein of white rimeveil thread (bundled 21,872 and a skein of swampgrass-green rimeveil thread (bundled 350)
I specifically mentioned rimeveil in this example, because people can sort of get away with dying a bit more wool than is needed to dye one finished wool product only. But the same is true of leatherworked items or figurines, or what have you. And I suspect there would be nothing wrong with making those items work in a similar way. For example:
Put dye in vat
You put a vial of swampgrass-green dye in a boubling vat of dye.
The dye slowly spreads in the vat.
transfer 3 pelt from backpack to vat
You successfully transfer the following from a heavy leather backpack (open) to a boubling vat of dye:
A fox pelt (x3)
(3 item(s) total)
*after some time*
Look in vat
In the boubling vat of dye (instance container) you see a swampgrass green fox pelt (X3
That is all. I think that is reasonable. What do you think?
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Ephemeralis
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by Ephemeralis »

If something like this is done, it should be capped at a maximum bundle weight, and a fairly low one at that. One item or X weight of a bundle.

There's not really enough riln sinks in the game as it is and I am a firm believer that expensive dyes are one of the only things really keeping the economy in check. That and some of the rarer dyes become considerably less rare if people can make huge quantities of cloth with them in one go (argent, any of the rarer blacks, etc).
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nobody
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by nobody »

As was pointed out in the last voice chat, leatherworkers have a severe disadvantage compaired to tailors and this does really well to level the playing field.
Gorth
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by Gorth »

As said complaining leatherworker, I did also ask for more natural fur colors. Granted, this doesn't translate to literal 'leather' items, just 'fur' items, so it's limitted, but that should help as well, once Rias gets around to it.

Even with that, I agree with this, though I would push for a *slightly* higher bundle limit than I'm sure would be made. However, the ability to dye an entire suit of armor, or even just a handful of pieces of clothing would be glorious.
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Teri
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Re:

Post by Teri »

I like the idea of your idea a riln sink of being able to dye an increment of some arbitrary unit of thread (x100, x500), and for other items, and for other items as you said, something with an upper threshold of space. Since the weight of thread is so low, a bundled specific one, and another based on weight for everything else.

Rambling dye ideas:
(Of course, the rarity of dyes will be impacted if potential dye crafting or purchasing happens in the future)
A society that gives access to a special cottage for larger quantities
The ability for a weaver or tailor with 400 skill being able to dye certain amounts, or a company perk to dye certain amounts.
In the voice chat I also rambled about having larger wool animals to dye the product from to spin would be neat.
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Rias
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by Rias »

For clarification's sake, here's a quote from post that announced this change:
Rias wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:00 pm Per the changelog: It is no longer possible to dye bundled items.
That entire bundles were able to be dyed with a single vial of dye was an oversight when the bundle mechanic was introduced. Dyes have always been meant to be used on individual end products.
I realize it feels bad when something that felt nice and useful gets taken away, but stretching a single vial of dye to be used for large quantities of end-product items really was very much an unintended oversight when the bundle system was introduced to reduce server item bloat. Honestly, dying a single sheared wool item and getting a lot of dyed cloth out of the single item was also an oversight, but not one I've felt the need to remove thus far.

I'm willing to consider possibly making dyes work for a few smaller items at once, but dyes are one of the few actually-kind-of-rare things in the game because specific colors can't be grind-produced. That helps keep them special. Their rarity and their resulting value is deliberate. They're also a one-and-done kind of thing. It can admittedly require a lot of patience to finally find and secure that particular dye you're after, but once you have it and dye your item, it's dyed for good.

It should also be mentioned that no generated dye color is more common or more rare based on anything other than the RNG of the loot system. Black dyes are rare and valuable not because the system has been designed to generates them less frequently, but rather because many people want them, and shrewd individuals know this and snatch them up whenever they find them to sell them at controlled rates and high prices rather than just tossing them on the market at standard market value.

There are eventual plans for the creation of some dye colors, but plenty will remain impossible for players to produce on their own. Having the ability to produce all dye colors would devalue not only dyes all around, but also special animal husbandry livestock that have unique wool colors.

The idea of a specific guild or class or something associated with the planned-but-not-high-priority artisan-type guild having some way to both produce (some) dyes and stretch the usage of dye vials a bit has potential.

This is likely all coming across as a very hard "this is how it is", but I want to encourage continued feedback and discussion here. While I admit I don't feel particularly moved to change the way dyes work at the moment, something in continued discussion may well sway things.
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Gorth
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by Gorth »

I'm going to continue to moan about my leatherworking, be warned.

Whilst I understand the point of this, and agree with the general idea, I feel it ignores *Leatherworking* in favor of tailoring.
While I understand that mass dying is...not intended, and not great for your vision of how dyes should be, I will also mention that a lot of players, including me, care a whole lot about asthetics and colors in clothing. Maya, my character, is also one of those people. However, the rare/expensive dyes, Blacks namely, are the kind of dyes that, I would think, would not be the color you would use to offset a color, I.E. you wouldn't pop out black in an outfit, it's more of a baseline/background color spread out throughout the outfit.

I will also freely admit, for all my moaning, I haven't thought of a better solution, though I'm hoping smarter people than I can do their thing.
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Ephemeralis
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by Ephemeralis »

Leatherworking might be better served by moving the colour component away from dyes and into rare spawns of mobs with unusually coloured pelts/skin, perhaps as a product of ongoing nether corruption or other shenanigans. Would be a nice boost to people who want to hunt for such things, I think.

Discworld MUD does a thing where ambient levels of magic in a room influence the result of some spells - perhaps something could happen on this front where excess arcane or sorcery used in an area might temporarily cause the above to spawn? Intrepid leatherworkers seeking unusual colours could casually attempt to unbalance an entire area, something the druidic folk might want to fix. Boom - an entire gameplay loop emerges from one profession getting coloured items.
Leopard
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by Leopard »

Here's an idea for leatherworkers. If we wish to increase the amount of things that can be dyed by a tailoring standpoint, here's a possible idea for leatherwork. We get the tanning tub that can hold a certain amount of leather/fur. What about, making a smaller version of the tub, that can be used for dyeing leathers and or furs? The tanning tub can hold lots, so it doesn't have to be nearly as big, but it would give leatherworkers a bit of wiggle room to work with as well in regards to dying more than one thing, rather than just one piece which seems to be part of the frustration as tailors have a slight advantage currently. Not sure if this could work or would even be possible, but it's a thought! I know Adelina would enjoy being able to work with more colors for a few pieces, rather than just one piece once the item in question is finished being made.
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Rias
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Re: Dying Bundled Items

Post by Rias »

One more thing I wanted to share regarding how I'm approaching this: I see dyes as intended for consumers, not for producers/crafters. With my PCs I play - all consumers, not crafters - I don't go looking specifically for a mushroom-gray wool sweater. The chances that I'm going to find the item I want that is also already in the color I want are going to be vanishingly rare. It's a lot easier to just buy/collect the dyes of colors I like, then buy or commission a sweater of any color and just dye it with the dyes I have. I don't go to a leatherworker and say, "I want some viridian leather vambraces", I just order some plain vambraces and then I, the consumer, dye it whatever color I want once I receive my vambraces.

A crafter might say "Look at all my fine wares, all in a delightful ultramarine color!" That's great! They're fine-quality items, and I agree ultramarine is a very neat color in both name and hue, and I will certainly buy some of your wares .... but I don't want everything I own (or anything, really) to be ultramarine. So I'm still going to buy your stuff, but I'm just going to re-dye it all a different color anyway with these dyes I've already collected in advance because they're the colors I specifically like.

It seems to me that using dyes on items that don't already have a locked-in buyer who wants that specific color is wasting the dyes. I have not once found the item I was looking for in the specific color I wanted, or bought an item because it was a specific color (save dye vials themselves). I always end up changing the colors of dyed items I buy to another color, and then I think of how it's a shame that a dye was spent on this item because I'm just overwriting it.

Treating the dyeing step as on the consumer rather than on the crafter/producers strikes me as the clearly optimal and efficient way to go about things, but maybe I'm just missing some compelling reason to pre-dye items that don't already have a specific recipient locked in who wants that specific color.
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