LOTS of Rambling on Death

Share your feedback about COGG.
Frisbee
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:33 am
Location: Greece

LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Frisbee »

Hey,

I wanted to make this post for a little while, but just wasn't given an opportunity to, because all our undying characters were being boring layabouts who didn't go and die often enough.

Okay, that isn't true. Anyway, on with the actual post!

Very recently, a character suffered a death that was very much not due to bad rolls, or powerful mobs, or forgetting to eat while making 30000 campfire bundles. Their body, or, shall I say, one of their bodies, is currently in the Shadgard crypts, but, what with their being undying, there's some other version of them in some respawning room. Something about this never quite sat right with me -- Say your character dies, respawns in an infirmary packed full of people, then you just get a wall of text about it, while your friend who was fighting alongside you is yelling over the pendant, "Oh, my dear friend has just expired in the hands of the liberi," or something like that, then they're informed by an exasperated busy doctor that "No, your friend's here, they look fine to me, just a little shocked." Which is technically true, but how much time has ellapsed since you were bleeding out, and lying on the infirmary bed? Mechanically, I think, that time is less than a second. This, in my opinion, significantly lessens the impact of the event itself, especially if the undying person happens to be seen by others upon their return. I suppose this differs from individual to individual, but, in my and my character's eyes, death is horrible, soul-crushing, and not something you can just brush off. I'd like to think it leaves one weakened both in body and mind, and it takes some time for a new body to be forged, or conjured, or whatever it is that happens.

I apologise in advance for bringing CLOK into my ramblings, but I promise I will only mention it somewhat briefly. For all its flaws, I think that game NAILED death in the head. Whether a character would return to the world was almost entirely based on what they were thinking at the time, as there were a few paths you could go, and the outcome wasn't predetermined. Fellow-players could actively help resurrect someone, while they could explore a little area and interact with objects which would help them either return to life, or move on. I figure there might be some intellectual property reason for not implementing this, or parts of it, here, and that's fair enough. If, however, it's not because of that, I'm truthfully very eager to read about why these death mechanics, and how these death mechanics.

I would honestly be much happier if the mechanics were left the same, but when you died you were put in some void-filled room, and only given the text from before you respawn, and then you could type return, or respawn, or reapparate, or something, and you'd be put back in town, as before. At least the 'indeterminate amount of time' you were drifting and struggling wouldn't be next to nothing, that way.

Anyway, thank you so very much, as always, for hearing me out, if you did, and whoever did. I'd appreciate and welcome any sort of comments, or additions to this, and sorry it had to be this long and rambly. hopefully it made some sort of sense!
Stop putting watermellons into the first thing you see that looks like it can hold a watermellon. It is most rude, because you'll only make them feel like they don't belong.
artus
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:43 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by artus »

I honestly do agree. The spawn time and the death is less than a second and, judging by he given text after each death, you have enough time to wander confusedly until somene finds you, which is impossible within a given timeframe after you die. A little cooldown before you respawn may be a nice addition, if I may suggest.
Gorth
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:53 am
Location: Michigan

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Gorth »

I agree. While it doesn't feel good, I have experience, to be locked out of playing for, sometimes a really, really long time, it can do a few things:
  • Make the impact higher: Allow people to take time to come back, so that I don't die, and then just be like, "Well, what's the point in NOT going back and stealthing through and grabbing my corpse?"
  • Make it more impactful for others: It feels odd when I watch someone die under crushing odds, or even mundane odds, and then they just waltz back in, grab there corpse, refill there bucket and leave.
  • Allo wfor increased RP opportunities/final deaths without GM intervention: If you believe your character has had a good run of it, and you want them to die in battle one final time, you can easily just go die, logout and retire. The issue, of course, comes in with...well, what if you spawn in the Infirmary and a PC sees you? RIP your plans.
  • Last thing. It could easily promote more cautiousness in dangerous situations: A lot of people who play undying characters often are prone to rushing into bad things, because they, as a player, know that there character will come back. The characters don't have that, and having some sort of real penalty for dying would make that much more real.
The last point comes mostly from my thought that death has far too few penalties. The fact that I can die and come back relatively fine, except for a varying sanity hit, Morale hit and empty EXPBucket is a little silly to me. I'm not sure exactly what other things we could do, but I feel like death is a very unreal thing, particularly to someone, like me, who's died a whole lot.
:undm_scales_key: :shagerd:
Proud owner of the ten thousandth post.
User avatar
Xandrea
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:34 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Xandrea »

I see your ramble and raise you another. I'm so sorry this is so long but, I have a TON to say and I feel it's important enough to word vomit my feelings.

I've always had some mixed opinions on this specific topic. I feel relatively defeated IC and OOC when I can't go back and fix my own mistake. Every death my main character has ever had were never simply bad rolls or just a bout of bad luck. I actively understood I was taking a risky chance every time. We try to be very careful. I knew and She knew death was a possibility. Because the one thing I've gotten used to because of my character. Is risk management. Knowing and understanding risks and if we should take them.

I want death to have worse penalties. I'd immensely enjoy it if my own character's corpse got reanimated in places where the dead already walk for instance. I wouldn't just simply think, "Oh I'll just go get that back and sweep it under the rug." It becomes an issue of being able to kill myself (again) and risk 'more' of me being there if I fail. Even worse if it's a warrior with a greatsword! Now we have a big situation!

Having some issue carry over on every death seems great to me. Not that a player can respawn and be just as terribly hurt. Rather a lasting condition that gives a large enough detriment to "bench" your hot heels for awhile.
  • If you died because you got killed by a severe head wound? 30 minutes of vertigo. Can you dodge when you can't even stand up straight?
  • Legs and arms. Numbness. Your new form still has echoes of that battle. That arm is barely coordinatable due to numbness. Bet you can't swing properly.
  • Chest and abdomen. Breathing issues. Greatly reduced energy regeneration. A single random tick of RT here and there to remind it's an issue.
  • Neck. Issues speaking and communicating. Trouble swallowing. (eating induces RT, drinking doesn't. Hey drinking might help reduce the time it takes to recover!)
My character's thought process in "Why not just go back and fix my mistake myself?" Is pride. I don't like help. She doesn't like help, but if She can't even stand up straight in this new body. What choice does She have? The glaring issue I see with it is really just player agency. What few deaths I've seen in person the player almost always RPs having some sort of mental shock. For all the things I wish death penalized me for. It still feels utterly bitter when there's no trial to overcome because of it. If I ask for help. My body will appear before me. I do not have to struggle for it. (Which is what I enjoy.) It's a failure of my own creativeness. I know. When I die I'm drawing blanks as to how to properly and realistically act. The thing is. Nobody OOC (Or I hope not) have been killed IRL. I don't personally know anyone that has brushed with death and reading about it online doesn't exactly give me a bulletproof idea. Because I don't know, understand, or identify with the problem of dying well enough nor it's intracicies. I'm just emulating.

I'm usually about RP first. I'm not even level 50 because while I do grind here and there. I will switch focus for other people on a dime. If there's RP happening, the XP doesn't matter anymore. The interactions and subsequent character growth is more valuable than numbers ever will be. The problem I would have if I'm penalized too harshly however: would be that I have now been forced. RP is at it's sweetest when everyone involved wishes to be there and contributes. This is where severity of punishment becomes a gray area because it's no longer being presented as a choice. It is becoming a must and that can change people's attitude towards it entirely. They might be grinding through fighting because they're having a bad day already. Force might cause some seriously negative interactions and that's what I'm afraid of.

I'm going to greatly reach and generalize. I feel like I can say this. I know we all want death to MATTER. I believe we all have this in common. What I do not feel strong enough to say? Is that I don't know what level of punishment the individual can accept and work with. It would be great if along with the death respawn. You get a randomized suggestion. You're given some ideas or options.


Which I think might be a good solution. Before respawning get a list of detriments to choose. Including an option to not have one at all if you would rather make one yourself and RP it out. Death is supposed to be a punishment yes but, being given those ideas may give the tinder needed for some people. Hey, people like me. My character dying is a very stressful event in my irl mind. I'm facing a mental defeat. My character is getting that threefold. Being given the choice of what new issues to deal with would personally give me a challenge to overcome that isn't directly related to what just murdered us. In my defeat I will find rewards.

I really want to hear more people's opinions about this topic.
How many Sorcerers does it take to read a book?
Frisbee
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:33 am
Location: Greece

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Frisbee »

Truly, thank you all for posting your opinions here, especially the ones who've cared to expand on them. I must now counter-ramble lest i lose this iimpromptu duel.

I agree with everyone who's said that death should result in a few more penalties, or more severe penalties. It would give physickers and bards more to do, if nothing else, and that is good. However, I'm not quite sure what those might be.

Corpse reanimation is an interesting idea, but it would have to depend on where the death occured, and if somebody had the common sense to move the body to a safer location, fast. The nether might be everywhere, but I reckon it would take the magic of a sorcerer or five to command an entire body. It's not random that Evergreen Graveyard is teaming with nethrim, for example - The local base of the blood cult is just under there. Of course, that impression might be flawed, or anti-canon, or whatever, so forgive me if that is the case.

As for lingering body-related effects - difficulty speaking or moving etc, I don't necessarily disagree, but I think they are easily RPable, if the player is feeling up to it. I've done so, before, with specific wounds that may have had secondary effects. An arm wound from the acid of an infested plague walker is what comes to mind presently. What is great about RPing those versus them having been imposed on a player, is that the former is far less restrictive. The player can put emphasis on what they thought impacted their character the most, versus what the game told them to.

I, too, hope that none of my fellow-players is a time-travelling undead monster who is just getting the basics of playing a mud down, however, if that's the case, do write in and tell us what death is like, so we might follow an exact formula for how to roleplay it. :D Dumb joking aside, I haven't even had much experience with grief, or other people dying. However, what i think we should remind ourselves is that this is a game, and though a level of realism is often the goal, it's impossible and not necessarily desired to achieve 100% realism, all the time. I am personally thankful that we have the liberty to roleplay our own character's passing the way that we like. Of course, some people abuse that liberty to just say, "You know what? I have received the therapy trio from my physicker friend after I sent them a message to log in and help me, now I can go back to murdering things," and I suppose that's not harming anyone but that player's roleplaying experience, so it's only to their detriment.

All it comes down to, for me, to return to my innitial idea, is time. I want more of it, and less random re-spawning. This is what hinders my playing, at this stage, personally. The rest, I can get by just RPing.
Stop putting watermellons into the first thing you see that looks like it can hold a watermellon. It is most rude, because you'll only make them feel like they don't belong.
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Rias »

A death system update/overhaul is something that I think about fairly frequently. I do definitely feel that the insta-respawn is not great. I was excited when the interactivity of the death experience got put in on CLOK, as that was always a dream of mine that I never got to implement myself, and I hope to do something similar for COGG.

I don't have time to comment on the specifics given in this thread but I do want to say that this is an awesome discussion to be having and there are great ideas in here, so please continue!
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
Frisbee
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:33 am
Location: Greece

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Frisbee »

The mere appearance of this post excited me. I'm glad you get to think about it often, and I sincerely hope something or another eventually comes along. Maybe I can even get you to dream about it, like the merchants - that was STRICTLY INTENTIONAL. Thank you for taking the time to reply!
Stop putting watermellons into the first thing you see that looks like it can hold a watermellon. It is most rude, because you'll only make them feel like they don't belong.
artus
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:43 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by artus »

Honestly, I, for one, don't have trouble waiing for 8 hours mid event to be resurrected and rp, as it often happened on Clok. Thing though is that such time may not be appreciated by some players. Since we don't use the whole sorcery/thaum anymore, and while I can't come up with ideas myself, I still remember that sand pyramid thingy on Clok that gives players a mean and time to autoresurrect, though with skill penalty. But again, that game has player oriented way to resurrect so the use of pyramid is pretty much a cheap escape. I'm looking forward to what people and, eventually hopefully Rias, can come up with in the end to make dying as fun as it is dreadful. Kinda excited to see what will result from a setting without thaum and sorcery resurrection.
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Rias »

artus wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:29 am Since we don't use the whole sorcery/thaum anymore [...] that game [CLOK] had player oriented way to resurrect [...] Kinda excited to see what will result from a setting without thaum and sorcery resurrection.
Funny, we were just talking about warlock familiars in another thread and how I have a bunch of abilities lined up for further utilizing them (and keeping them distinct from potential Primalist animal/spirit buddies).
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
jerc
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:26 pm

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by jerc »

:+1: for making resurrection more difficult/interactive.

This is something I've seen work pretty well in another MUD:
  • If you die while wearing an amulet/talisman/whatever, your soul gets trapped there after death.
    You can look at the current room and speak, but can't otherwise interact with anything.
    Another player has to be available to retrieve your vessel, and a specialized "resurrecter" has to be available to stick your soul back into your body (or a brand new one! Usually sourced from an unlucky NPC.).
    This had some problems with the resurrecters not actually being all that active, no non-player way to get resurrected, and people would throw soul vessels into the deepest darkest hole they could find to effectively "kill" a character. Not great.
  • If you weren't wearing one of these, your soul would instead be trapped hovering above your corpse.
    Again, you could look around and speak, but couldn't move or interact with anything.
    You'd be stuck that way until either someone came along to resurrect you (which was easier than the "vessel" scenario), or your corpse got destroyed, perma'ing the character.
The later seems pretty reasonable for COGG given its non-rotting/destroyable corpses and admonitions against dragging them anywhere unrecoverable.
It could still end up being un-fun to die all on your own and just have to wait around till someone happens by though. Maybe with some timeout after which you'd get auto-rescued by an NPC?
Post Reply