LOTS of Rambling on Death

Share your feedback about COGG.
Cal
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Cal »

Hey! I'm new, so I haven't had the experience of Undying Death in game yet (and hope not to for quite a while) and I never played CLOK, so my perspective is pretty different. That said, I do have some thoughts on possible death penalties which I hope you all find interesting, if nothing else.

In an MMO I play, there's a personal story chapter where your character dies and has to navigate the underworld in order to be revived. This is not the actual game mechanic for being defeated, but the idea really stuck with me and I've spent a lot of time mulling over how to implement meaningful character death mechanic. And from what I've played and read so far, this would be a nearly perfect kind of game for the ideas I've toyed with.

On to specifics! The core of the idea is, when your character dies, you'd be put into some sort of vague and disorienting underworld/limbo "space" where you don't have any of your gear or skills or abilities, and you have to navigate a series of obstacles in order to return to life. They could be puzzles, or riddles, or a maze, or a duel, or whatever else - one randomly chosen, or a combination, either out of the whole pool of options or of sub-pools based on your character's race, origin, and/or guild. And once you've navigated past a certain number of challenges, you respawn as per normal.

Narratively, it could be designed to tie in lore hints as to the nature of the Undying.
Mechanically, it gives an enforced pause to character activity without locking out the player.
Roleplaying....ly, it would give that much-wanted window of time for any other characters involved to respond to the event of the character's demise.

One last interesting addition/complication to the idea: while I know it would be easiest to implement a fixed number of challenges, or even just a simple RNG-based one, if you consider the idea at all, consider having the number of challenges you have to overcome be connected to the number of deaths your character has had. The more reckless you are with losing your life, the steeper the penalty would get.
artus
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:43 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by artus »

Wow man, the idea of the longer you live, the less uss you get when you die idea sounds epic! It gives players a reason not to go do something dumb and die right after being out of one. I love that. Imagine you staying for weeks or months without dying and then get less penalty compared to someone who dies 3 times a month. Welp, liberi and endgame mob botherers may not like it much. May be they'll have less reason to do that and focus more on rp, grouping in, avoiding it for a while, whatever.
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Rias »

I do like the general idea of better/worse "respawn" means (similar to how they were in CLOK for those who played it). The better the method, the lesser the penalties. Something like this, from Best to Worst:

1. Have another PC use an ability that retrieves your soul and puts it back in your current corpse.
2. Have another PC drag your corpse to a place where an NPC can do the above.
Both of the above require PCs being able to retrieve the dead person's corpse. Which I think is fun for others to do - I always enjoyed participating in rescues like this. If the retrieval of the corpse proves too difficult or is taking too long for the dead PC's player, though ...
3. The dead person's spirit "detaches" from their corpse and goes to the Death Area where they can try and work through puzzles that result in varying means of what we have now - respawning in a new body, and having to go retrieve their gear from their previous corpse. This would spawn the new body in a specific place that's more appropriate to how that whole process goes lore-wise, instead of popping up right in Shadgard (or Mistral). So they'd also have to make their way back to town. The penalties suffered would be worse/longer-lasting than options 1 and 2, as having a soul stuffed into a different body (even if virtually identical to the old one) is not ideal. Another factor of how bad the penalties would be would depend on the means used to solve the Death Area Puzzle.

I'd probably say that a "detached" soul could still be called back from the Death Puzzle Area for options 1 and 2, but there might be a small penalty for having detached. Then people don't just immediately go to start working on the Death Puzzle, and the decision could be made based on whether they feel they're likely to be rescued in a timely manner or not. Although thinking about it, hmmm ... I'm not sure why exactly we'd want to incentivize waiting around doing virtually nothing instead of getting right into the Death Area Puzzle. Happy to hear thoughts.
Cal wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 pm consider having the number of challenges you have to overcome be connected to the number of deaths your character has had. The more reckless you are with losing your life, the steeper the penalty would get.
Ohhh, I like this idea. (As well as just generally giving harsher/longer-lasting penalties based on number of recent deaths. Maybe don't just run immediately back into the swarm of death that killed you (without your gear this time!) to try and grab your corpse.)
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
rocode
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:07 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by rocode »

Rias wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:17 pm 1. Have another PC use an ability that retrieves your soul and puts it back in your current corpse.
2. Have another PC drag your corpse to a place where an NPC can do the above.
I like the idea of adding an entry between these two, of having the NPC be a delayed option, so PCs with the capability have time to perform option 1. at the location of option 2.

Calling a PC to help revive your friend the same way people call Physicker PCs to deal with stuff faster/better than the NPC at the infirmary.

More PC interactions are always good.
User avatar
Lexx416
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Lexx416 »

Rias wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:17 pm I'd probably say that a "detached" soul could still be called back from the Death Puzzle Area for options 1 and 2, but there might be a small penalty for having detached. Then people don't just immediately go to start working on the Death Puzzle, and the decision could be made based on whether they feel they're likely to be rescued in a timely manner or not. Although thinking about it, hmmm ... I'm not sure why exactly we'd want to incentivize waiting around doing virtually nothing instead of getting right into the Death Area Puzzle. Happy to hear thoughts.
I would have a (relatively minor) debuff applied to starting the Death Puzzle Area, representing the psychic trauma inherent to the whole Being Undying Process - you pick up a little bit of baseline trauma that you get to carry back with you, but by proceeding further and further through the Death Area Puzzle, that baggage gets a little heavier with each step, until you're fully brought back with all of the awful turmoil and baggage associated with the process. Have the "baseline trauma effect" be something that a Physicker or a Bard can address, and have the other bits of baggage you pick up be effects that can only be lessened, but never fully squashed, with Player Support (so that player intervention can lessen the effects, but can never shorten the duration of these additional pieces of baggage, perhaps past a specific threshold of time).
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
Cal
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Cal »

I like the idea of having less of a penalty for being revived into your own body than self-resurrecting!

That said, on a personal note, I've never really liked the "hover over your dead body watching what happens around you" mechanic, in terms of impactful deaths. I think it would be more interesting if you don't know whether or not someone's planning on trying to call your soul back to revive you. And, also on a personal note, I really like the current state of the lore regarding Undying and how you return to life for reasons basically nobody IC understands, and I feel like players being able to bring dead characters back to life would undermine that.

Buuut, I can see how it would help play into group dynamic mechanics to have some sort of anti-death support abilities.

So, thinking through how to make the two concepts play nicely together, I'm tentatively offering a "not quite dead" mechanic? Sort of like in... I think it's D&D, when your character reaches zero health, they're basically dead - but they're not dead dead, only mostly dead, and with your health ticking down. The difference being that your group can take action during that period to stabilize your condition and keep you from all the way dying so that they can heal you.

I think that would work with existing mechanics like bleeding fairly well, which already do tick damage, so the main shift would be a period of character unconsciousness before full death.

The main thing there is that you wouldn't actually have died, so you'd still have all the health penalties from being nearly mortally wounded but you wouldn't have the death-specific penalties, which fits the "lesser penalty for being saved by your group" criteria.
Cal
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Cal »

Lexx416 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:29 pm
Rias wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:17 pm I'd probably say that a "detached" soul could still be called back from the Death Puzzle Area for options 1 and 2, but there might be a small penalty for having detached. Then people don't just immediately go to start working on the Death Puzzle, and the decision could be made based on whether they feel they're likely to be rescued in a timely manner or not. Although thinking about it, hmmm ... I'm not sure why exactly we'd want to incentivize waiting around doing virtually nothing instead of getting right into the Death Area Puzzle. Happy to hear thoughts.
I would have a (relatively minor) debuff applied to starting the Death Puzzle Area, representing the psychic trauma inherent to the whole Being Undying Process - you pick up a little bit of baseline trauma that you get to carry back with you, but by proceeding further and further through the Death Area Puzzle, that baggage gets a little heavier with each step, until you're fully brought back with all of the awful turmoil and baggage associated with the process. Have the "baseline trauma effect" be something that a Physicker or a Bard can address, and have the other bits of baggage you pick up be effects that can only be lessened, but never fully squashed, with Player Support (so that player intervention can lessen the effects, but can never shorten the duration of these additional pieces of baggage, perhaps past a specific threshold of time).
While my suggestion has player-intervention acting more as a preventative measure than "summoning back from the dead", I absolutely love how well this would work with the "more challenges for dying more" idea. Each successive challenge you have to undergo not only taking more time but also increasing the psychological trauma of the experience is perfect.
Frisbee
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:33 am
Location: Greece

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Frisbee »

Rias wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:17 pm I'd probably say that a "detached" soul could still be called back from the Death Puzzle Area for options 1 and 2, but there might be a small penalty for having detached. Then people don't just immediately go to start working on the Death Puzzle, and the decision could be made based on whether they feel they're likely to be rescued in a timely manner or not. Although thinking about it, hmmm ... I'm not sure why exactly we'd want to incentivize waiting around doing virtually nothing instead of getting right into the Death Area Puzzle. Happy to hear thoughts.
I think the only reason why someone would wait around a bit is, sort of, "What's happened to me! Where am I! Am I lost, or dead!" I think theoretically anyone who's been through such a traumatic event would not rush to pick themselves up immediately, but wait a bit, and reflect, and think, then, their recovering instincts would kick in and they would start exploring. Meanwhile, someone could find their corpse and attempt to help them. By the way, I think there should be a way for the dead person to intervene and say "NO" before they are resurrected by a PC, especially when it comes to means that not all people might enjoy, like familiar resurrection was, on CLOK.

It's making me really happy to see ideas spring up around this topic so rapidly. Please continue!
Stop putting watermellons into the first thing you see that looks like it can hold a watermellon. It is most rude, because you'll only make them feel like they don't belong.
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Rias »

I think a fun thing about having the Death Puzzle Area is that as mentioned previously, it can offer vague hints and things for people to grasp at as to what's actually going on with the whole Undying thing, while not explicitly explaining it. A big part of the experience would be confusion and vagueness. Room descriptions would be weird (and changing), the standard Five Senses wouldn't really be working properly, etc. But a few things would be constants or near-constants as part of the experience to offer some Undying Lore Conspiracy Theory Bait.

Another thing I was thinking of: In CLOK, there was a certain item in the Death Area that could be used to send out a sort of signal that those with special ESP pendant tuners could sense. This was essentially like an SOS signal, and also gave an idea of where the corpse was at to aid in rescues. I think I'd like to keep that around. I had a good amount of lore behind that particular mechanic which I'm sad doesn't really play into things currently in COGG because the death experience doesn't really exist. Then part of the Death Area interactivity could simply be finding that object again every so often to send out SOS updates, to to speak. While also having a timer on it so it doesn't get spammed, because that could be really annoying. It was possible to just idle next to in in CLOK - I think this time I'd want it to have to be found again after each activation, to keep that interactivity going rather than just idling. Activate it, then have to go through more exploration/puzzles to find it again for the next activation.
Frisbee wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:45 pm I think there should be a way for the dead person to intervene and say "NO" before they are resurrected by a PC, especially when it comes to means that not all people might enjoy, like familiar resurrection was, on CLOK.
Controversial opinion, but I actually prefer the idea that one cannot say no to it, and the resulting drama/RP that occurs when someone gets restored to life in a way they might not appreciate.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
Frisbee
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:33 am
Location: Greece

Re: LOTS of Rambling on Death

Post by Frisbee »

HMM! This last bit about potential RP and drama made me reconsider. I revoke my previous opinion, and agree with you!
Stop putting watermellons into the first thing you see that looks like it can hold a watermellon. It is most rude, because you'll only make them feel like they don't belong.
Post Reply